She’s recently switched industries and has seen her fast-paced leadership growth stall out. Host Muriel Wilkins coaches her through understanding the feedback she’s receiving, what it means to her organization, and what might help get her back on track.
Further reading:
How to Become More Visible at Work
How to Make Your Leadership Potential More Visible
10 Ways To Raise Your Internal Visibility At Work
How to Raise Your Visibility at Work
Muriel Wilkins:
I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR podcast network. I’m a longtime executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them, so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing. Today’s guest is someone we’ll call Jada to protect her confidentiality. She’s experienced positive career momentum in the past, frequently getting promotions and advancing through the ranks.
Jada:
I really learned out of that that I love people. My soft skills seem to be something that gets me into places and rooms. I was promoted pretty often and quickly in the beginning of those stages and got to learn even more about what I was good at, what I wasn’t good at, what I liked, what I didn’t like.
Muriel Wilkins:
While she was proud of her achievements, Jada also recognized that there were things about the industry she started her career in that she didn’t like as much, that weren’t really aligned with her values, and so she transitioned to the tech sector, where she could focus on strategy and big picture planning, among other things. But making that switch also came with some downsides.
Jada:
I knew that changing industries would potentially involve moving backwards to move forward. So, that has happened, and I was okay with that. I was a little disappointed that the growth that I saw previously in my old industry hasn’t been happening as quickly as it has been in this one, but generally, I’m loving the work. I find it extremely challenging. I love a challenge. I’m getting to a place now where it’s feeling a little less challenging and more comfortable, and I would like to get back into a space where I’m on my toes.
Muriel Wilkins:
Jada’s hoping to get back on the promotion track and managing teams. In order to do that, I started by asking a bit more about the slower career growth she’s experiencing and what she thinks might be behind it.
Jada:
I’ve asked for feedback about this from direct managers, from managers in other parts of the company who still see my work. And from my immediate managers, I get told that I need to work on my visibility. It’s really shocked me because we had a change in leadership, and I went to my new manager and asked them for some feedback on what I could be doing to grow, and they said visibility also. And I was like, “Wow, this is really interesting.” Because the old manager and the new manager never spoke to each other. I don’t think they had any notes they compared about me.
And what I couldn’t help thinking about was in my previous industry, the feedback that I often got there was around executive presence. Back then, I attributed the executive presence with being young, looking young, but now in my new industry, I’m usually one of the older people in the room. And it’s just really interesting to have seen across two different spaces how I’ve gotten feedback that’s related more to other people’s perception of me and not really about my performance and work.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, what do you make of that? You said it’s interesting that across two spaces, you’ve gotten feedback based on the perception of you rather than the actuality of your work. How does that land with you?
Jada:
So, I have two different thoughts on this, and I’m not sure where to land. One is it’s absolutely right, and I’m the problem, and I’ve got to figure out how to fix this thing and address it. But more recently, I’m doubting that the visibility is the real feedback that I need to hear. I believe I’m pretty active in my company. I am visible in my company; people see me. I’m very engaged. I’m in lots of different groups. One of the things recently that I’ve been trying to work on is a little more self-promoting, but I am very visible. So, I’m not sure if maybe I’m understanding visibility incorrectly, or is it that the managers are not giving me the real feedback that I need to hear.
Muriel Wilkins:
All right. And so, is that while you’re sitting here?
Jada:
It is.
Muriel Wilkins:
So, let me just make sure that I’ve heard you correct in terms of everything that’s happened. It sounds like in the past setting that you were, or organizations that you were, the promotions came fast and furious, and even though you did get feedback on your executive presence, you still were advanced. Fast forward, you’ve transitioned to a new space, a new sector, you feel like you’re doing the work, and you are being seen, or you’re out there, you’re active within the organization, and yet the promotions are not happening as quickly. And you feel like the feedback you’ve gotten from two data points are around your visibility.
Jada:
That’s correct.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, are you attributing the lack of promotion to this visibility aspect?
Jada:
Mostly, that’s all I know. If I’m going off of what I’m being told, that is the constant… I haven’t gotten any real feedback about any other areas of my work that seem to be holding me back. So, I don’t know that it’s anything else.
Muriel Wilkins:
Understood. And so, let me just… Because it’s important that we understand what is in your control and what is out of your control. And so, when you say the promotions are not happening as quickly, what are you comparing that to?
Jada:
I’m comparing it to other employees who joins the company when I did or even after who have less experience in certain avenues than I have.
Muriel Wilkins:
So, you are comparing it to internal candidates, not comparing it to how quickly you were getting promoted in a different sector or a different organization?
Jada:
Nope.
Muriel Wilkins:
That’s an important data point to understand to make sure that we’re looking at it within the context that you’re in. And then when they say visibility to you, how do you define what visibility is?
Jada:
For me, visibility was ensuring that when we have company-wide events, that I get an opportunity to present, or if we are in virtual sessions, that I am contributing in our sessions. We have other means of communicating, and I ensure that I am asking questions, I’m praising other people. I am telling stories from our customers. That to me was what visibility would be about.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, when you now think about you doing all those things and then getting feedback about you need to be more visible, have you thought about what else visibility might mean or what else it could incorporate?
Jada:
I did do some thinking on that. That’s where the idea of… I hate the word “Self-promoting,” but I thought that it was maybe important to ensure that the visibility that I have is showing not just me being out there, but how does the work that I do impact the company. And so, I’ve done a little bit more of filtering the visibility I have. I’m often known in our company as a culture person when there’s something fun to do, “Let’s tap her. She can get everybody to have fun and engaged.” And so, I’ve been saying no to some of those opportunities and ensuring that anything that I say yes to are places where I can say “I did this,” and the impact on the company was. That’s been a little more recent, but it is one thought I had on how I could do a little better with this visibility.
Muriel Wilkins:
Look, that that is a part of it. Because visibility for the sake of visibility is just showing up, as you put it, being out there. And it’s like, “Okay, but being out there for what?” And is the way that you’re out there relevant to those who ultimately need to be impacted by that visibility or who matter in terms of what your goal is, which is to advance. So, when you think about making your visibility matter, making it relevant, think about it in terms of…
Well, this is the thought that’s coming to mind. It’s like when you scroll through social media and you get ads and you’re like, “Why is this in my feed?” It’s visible, but it’s not relevant. And then you get the one that you’re like, “Oh yeah, how did they even know that I was thinking that? Were they listening to the conversation that I was having with my friend literally 10 minutes ago?” So relevant. And so, when you think about it that way, that’s the relevancy. And my question to you is, what would be the algorithm that you would need to have to be able to be relevant to those stakeholders?
Jada:
Our company obviously has a vision, a mission. We have our company goals. That maybe… Most recently, the visibility that I’ve been trying to do that was intentionally aligned with impact to the company has been a little more aligned to our mission and vision. And maybe I could do some more strategic intentional visibility work around company goals and ensuring that the people who can make the decisions of my promotions, of my growth, of my development, that my visibility is aligned with the things that are important to them, and maybe not what I assumed it to be.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, there’s this dissonance between potentially between what you assume is important and what is actually important. And I don’t know what is, because those stakeholders are not sitting here with us, and I don’t get a chance to speak to them in this situation, but do you have a sense of what’s important to them? What keeps them up at night?
Jada:
Yes, I have unique insight into that because I’m an extrovert at work, and I have no problem just scheduling a meeting with someone and talking to them about, “So, tell me what keeps you up at night?” And I have a lot of insight from our directors and MVPs on what is a priority to them, particularly, and not just for their team or what’s being spoken to the company. So, I do know we have some product changes that are going on, and I know making sure those get rolled out smoothly is top of mind for them. A few things like that.
Muriel Wilkins:
It would be critical to figure out what is on their critical path to ensure that you are on that path. The question is… Again, you’re visible. You’re visible on a particular path, but is that the critical path? And that’s part of what you have to find out, and what you have at your disposal is you said, it sounds like you have the wherewithal to go and talk to folks and ask the questions. It’s more a matter of what are the questions that you should be asking. And so, in this case, if you were to sit down with, and we’ll talk about the stakeholders soon, but if you were to sit down with some of these folks, what would be the questions that you would ask that you haven’t yet asked that would give you more clarity around how you make your visibility relevant?
Jada:
So, it’s funny that you ask the question about, “What keeps you up at night?” Because that is one of the questions I often ask them, but maybe recently I was reading about prioritizing time and resources and I was fumbling around with the question of “If you could devote 10% more of your resources, whether that’s time, personnel, budget, to another project that’s going on, what would that project be?”
I am very curious to know where would they love to spend more time and more resources that aren’t getting that that might be something that bubbles up into what is a priority for them. I don’t think asking them about where they’re spending their time now necessarily gives me insight into their priorities because I think whatever’s on fire is usually getting more of your time than what a priority might be.
Muriel Wilkins:
So, in terms of what questions to ask, you can be at the macro level, which is “What keeps you up at night?” And then there are more granular zooming in micro questions, which are these project-oriented, what… Very tactical, “What saves you time?” Et cetera. And there’s probably a whole range in between, but what is clear is that even in asking them, you want to frame it in a way where you can walk away with understanding what has the most weight, what is most important, what is causing the most heartburn, so that if there is an opportunity for you to focus and contribute to relieving that heartburn, then that makes it relevant.
Jada:
I like that.
Muriel Wilkins:
Either relieving the heartburn because you’re problem-solving and taking it away, or you’re being opportunistic and you’re creating value in a way that then relieves whatever the challenges are, if that makes sense.
Jada:
It does. I do think I could take advantage better of my time in these chats with other people by asking better questions. More of my intention with those meetings previously had been for people to see me, for me to get an opportunity to talk about what I was doing, build relationships, but investing a little bit more into those other people, and asking the good questions will be really helpful.
Muriel Wilkins:
While it might feel like semantics, being clear about what we mean is really useful when working through a challenge. In Jada’s case, she used the word visibility and was struggling to understand what her managers meant by it, but I wasn’t quite sure how she defined it for herself either. And using my own definition wouldn’t be helpful. I have to meet her where she is. When you think of a term like visibility, it can mean different things to different people. For some it can simply mean speaking in meetings and joining groups at the organization, or you can expand your definition of visibility to being seen as doing what leadership and the company views as most valuable in the current context.
As in Jada’s case, sometimes there’s a mismatch between what you may be doing, how you’re defining success, and how others might be defining it. Getting specific about what those differences are is really useful before moving to problem-solving. It’s a good sign that Jada is already taking the initiative and trying to have conversations with leaders at her organization. So, the question is whether she’s leveraging those conversations to better inform her as to what leaders are really looking for. Those conversations need to be focused. And so, I wanted to zero in on how relevant she’s positioning herself in those discussions. Let’s jump back in as she explains what her approach has been in these discussions, what she’s been talking about, and with who?
Jada:
I have been aiming for people that are outside of our department, just some cross teams that I don’t always have the need to work with very often. I fought at the time that being a mile wide versus an inch deep was a smarter strategy, but now, talking to you, I’m questioning that maybe I should be spending more time with the people in my team versus other departments who have less to do with my growth and development. Those are probably people who would be advocates or sponsors. And while it is helpful to talk to them, I don’t know that it’s immediately helping me with this issue.
Muriel Wilkins:
All right. So, that’s a great distinction. It’s like, how deep do you go? If you think about it as a T model, there’s the vertical, which is “I’m going to have deep visibility internally in my world, on my team, in my group, in my division.” And then the top part of the T, the horizontal part, is “I’m going to go broad across the organization so that people know me.” And there are clearly benefits to both. And so, part of what you’re saying is you’ve been focused more on the horizontal in terms of the breadth. And has that come… Let me just ask you for clarity for me, has that come at the expense of the depth within your group, the vertical within your group?
Jada:
100%, yes.
Muriel Wilkins:
And has it come at an expense vertically, downward? Meaning people more junior than you, or people more senior than you, or both?
Jada:
I would say I’m generally more senior.
Muriel Wilkins:
You have done more senior?
Jada:
Yeah.
Muriel Wilkins:
Got it. So, in what way has it been at the expense of downstream vertically within your team?
Jada:
Vertically, downward. People see what I’m doing broadly, and that has probably been why I’ve gained more of a reputation for being the strong culture person. They see me bringing together people from across teams versus maybe being more strategically minded, working on our internal projects. I do some of that work, but I don’t know that people see me as the expert on those things. And so, that’s how it has taken me away from that type of visibility.
Muriel Wilkins:
So, there’s a part of you’re known. You’re known as a culture carrier, you’re known as a good person. I’m just going to label it as that, and I’m just going to push it. You react to what I’m saying. Do you imagine that there’s a question around, “But what does she really do?” or “What does she really deliver?”
Jada:
There’s the potential for that being true.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, part of it is as you’re building your story and your narrative and giving it this visibility piece to it, there is… Of course, you want to be known, but then there’s “What do you want to be known for?” And I haven’t quite heard from you. It sounds like you’re known as the culture carrier, but what I haven’t heard is, is that what you want to be known for? And does the person who’s known primarily as the culture carrier within your organization, is that the currency that gets them advanced?
Jada:
It is not the currency that gets them advanced. I do enjoy some of that culture work, but at the end of the day, I know for promotions and advancements that unless there’s a culture problem, that is not going to be anything that’s particularly helpful for me.
Muriel Wilkins:
So, what do you want to be known for? What do you want to be known for? And then what do you think you need to be known for to be advanced? Which are two different questions.
Jada:
I’m going to start with what I think I need to be known for, which is being a strategic thinker, adding value and impact to the company, which is going to… At the end of the day be, “How do I make the company more money?” What I want to be known for? I want to be known for being a great team player, someone who is easy to work with, who’s a great brainstormer, who brings innovative ideas, who works well with others, really, at the end of the day.
Muriel Wilkins:
And so, what would it look like for you to be known for both?
Jada:
That’s a great question. It would have to do with working on projects with people from within my division and maybe leading those projects from time to time, but really being a great collaborative person on those and making sure that the projects are the strategic ones. And we do a lot of project work internally, and many times those can be things that you’re working on individually, and maybe me looking for more opportunities for the projects that involve working on a team.
Muriel Wilkins:
All right. And so, when you think about that as the potential path to get you more visibility in a way that’s relevant, that you are working collaboratively on projects that have that strong strategic element to them, what is the difference between doing that and what y